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'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh"

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Post by a2ndopinion Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:16 am

a2ndopinion wrote:highwind, where are you located (since your profile isn't complete - hint, hint)?
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Post by highwind Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:53 am

florida, the space coast

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Post by a2ndopinion Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:58 am

Wow - can't get much further away. I guess I can't provide any hands on help!
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Post by highwind Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:17 pm

a2ndopinion wrote:Wow - can't get much further away. I guess I can't provide any hands on help!
im willing to make this happen but i hope i can still have the same lowered car that i have now. Sad

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Post by a2ndopinion Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:29 pm

Isn't yours basically resting on the bump stops? That will not help handling at all, as you must have some suspension to keep the tires in contact with the road when you hit bumps, otherwise the car will skip and skid in hard corners. Very stiff springs and/or shocks/struts present the same problem. That is why I'm going with the shortened tubes - to get more suspension travel back.
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Post by highwind Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:06 am

a2ndopinion wrote:Isn't yours basically resting on the bump stops? That will not help handling at all, as you must have some suspension to keep the tires in contact with the road when you hit bumps, otherwise the car will skip and skid in hard corners. Very stiff springs and/or shocks/struts present the same problem. That is why I'm going with the shortened tubes - to get more suspension travel back.

would any aftermarket coilovers made for celicas work for the wagon?

like those kits from Techno Toy Tuning?

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Post by a2ndopinion Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:49 am

I believe that I've said at least three times since I've been on this forum, twice in this thread that I'm using generic Honduh Accord coilovers that I got off of craigslist for $35 for the set of four. I don't see the reason for paying for the T3 stuff when I can get much better stuff for just slightly more, sometimes even less. It's kinda like LC Engineering - why pay their exorbinant prices when I can get the same stuff from their suppliers for less, comparable stuff for less, or better stuff for the same price or slightly more.
I've put my car together for probably 1/3 of what many others have by shopping prices, craigslist... Not that I'm a tightwad (I am), but I just can't see giving my money to people who are making more than I feel it's worth. Even stuff I've bought new - Amazon and Summit Racing have about the best prices of anywhere. eBay is also a good money saver, but some of the sellers can't be trusted. I haven't been screwed on anything (yet?).
The strut tubes are 50mm - 2" OD when they are cleaned up, and the coilover sleeves are 51.2mm - 2.016". Some of the cheap generic coilover springs are like 700 in.lbs, which are about twice as stiff as need be, but "proper weight" springs are available from Summit, Jegs, Speedway... for circle track cars for as little as $35 once you know what you want. About 375 is as much as you want for a street driven car, maybe 425, but that's getting to the point that the car will skip in corners if the road is rough. Then again, some of that depends on struts and sway bars too. Struts (and shocks) that are too stiff don't let the springs move enough, so are just like too stiff of springs.
Sway bars don't increase ride stiffness on the straights, but do in the croners when the bar is loaded. Also, don't go spensing money for a rear sway bar until you feel that the front is set up right, and the rear springs and shocks feel correct, because you may not need one. Adding one that isn't needed will make the car tight - push - understeer in corners, which can be much worse than oversteer depending on your driving ability.
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Post by highwind Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:03 am

a2ndopinion wrote:I believe that I've said at least three times since I've been on this forum, twice in this thread that I'm using generic Honduh Accord coilovers that I got off of craigslist for $35 for the set of four. I don't see the reason for paying for the T3 stuff when I can get much better stuff for just slightly more, sometimes even less. It's kinda like LC Engineering - why pay their exorbinant prices when I can get the same stuff from their suppliers for less, comparable stuff for less, or better stuff for the same price or slightly more.
I've put my car together for probably 1/3 of what many others have by shopping prices, craigslist... Not that I'm a tightwad (I am), but I just can't see giving my money to people who are making more than I feel it's worth. Even stuff I've bought new - Amazon and Summit Racing have about the best prices of anywhere. eBay is also a good money saver, but some of the sellers can't be trusted. I haven't been screwed on anything (yet?).
The strut tubes are 50mm - 2" OD when they are cleaned up, and the coilover sleeves are 51.2mm - 2.016". Some of the cheap generic coilover springs are like 700 in.lbs, which are about twice as stiff as need be, but "proper weight" springs are available from Summit, Jegs, Speedway... for circle track cars for as little as $35 once you know what you want. About 375 is as much as you want for a street driven car, maybe 425, but that's getting to the point that the car will skip in corners if the road is rough. Then again, some of that depends on struts and sway bars too. Struts (and shocks) that are too stiff don't let the springs move enough, so are just like too stiff of springs.
Sway bars don't increase ride stiffness on the straights, but do in the croners when the bar is loaded. Also, don't go spensing money for a rear sway bar until you feel that the front is set up right, and the rear springs and shocks feel correct, because you may not need one. Adding one that isn't needed will make the car tight - push - understeer in corners, which can be much worse than oversteer depending on your driving ability.
im sorry its just that im not too suspension savy, I can take apart an engine and put it back together correctly but anything other than that. nothing. i hate wiring as well.......

im sorry.

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Post by a2ndopinion Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:08 am

No need to apologize, and I don't mean to come across like an ass. I am just trying to save everyone $$$!
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Post by highwind Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:09 am

a2ndopinion wrote:No need to apologize, and I don't mean to come across like an ass. I am just trying to save everyone $$$!
i completely understand. i guess i should frequent the forums more to find people that are parting out cars. Junkyards here are not really good.

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Post by a2ndopinion Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:16 am

Check and see if any of your local J/Ys list their inventory online, and watch craigslist very closely. We've found POS Supras and Celicas for next to nothing, and have parted them out ourselves, and actually made money off of them!
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Post by highwind Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:23 am

a2ndopinion wrote:Check and see if any of your local J/Ys list their inventory online, and watch craigslist very closely. We've found POS Supras and Celicas for next to nothing, and have parted them out ourselves, and actually made money off of them!
i think i hit gold already lol

http://orlando.craigslist.org/pts/3308079523.html

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Post by Lope70Mark2 Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:02 am

highwind wrote:
a2ndopinion wrote:Check and see if any of your local J/Ys list their inventory online, and watch craigslist very closely. We've found POS Supras and Celicas for next to nothing, and have parted them out ourselves, and actually made money off of them!
i think i hit gold already lol

http://orlando.craigslist.org/pts/3308079523.html

I think you did too


@a2ndopinion

well said
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Post by a2ndopinion Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:05 am

I'd say! Take the seats - they're made by Recaro and are extremely comfortable and adjustable. That's what I have in mine. Also, if you want to swap to a manual trans, there are all of the parts you need, with a W58 5 speed. If the Supra still has the strut tubes, you have all you need. Take the sway bar from the Supra too.
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Post by Lope70Mark2 Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:08 am

Take the seats - they're made by Recaro and are extremely comfortable and adjustable.

From the celica or supra? And do you know from which years you get the recaros?
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Post by a2ndopinion Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:32 am

The '82-'83 GT with Sport option/'84-'85 GT-S and all of the Mk II Supras all got the Recaro seats. Also, if you don't want to swap to a manual trans, take the auto shifter out of the auto GT-S, as its OD button is on the shifter. Much more convenient than the button on the left side of the dash. I did that too.
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Post by highwind Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:08 am

he's like a super guru. im so glad i didnt get rid of the wagon

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Post by a2ndopinion Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:22 am

I've been studying/working on/building/dismantling 2nd gen ('78-'81) Celicas for about 15 years and Mk I Supras almost as long, 3rd gens for about 6 years and Mk IIs almost as long, and late Coronas for 5, so yeah, I've learned a bit. Also a bunch about 2xR /RE motors, A40/40D/43D autos and W series manuals too. Along with T-code (6.7"), F-code (7.5") and G-code (8") diffs as well. The rest comes from 35+ years of working on cars, trucks, heavy equipment, boats and motorcycles...
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Post by a2ndopinion Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:29 am

Oh - also, if the auto trans is still there, get the OD solenoid off of the left side just above the pan rail. It's a PITA to unbolt, as the two 12mm bolts go in from the top, and there is almost no room next to the unibody rail right there. A 12pt offset box end wrench works the best, 1/12 of a turn at a time...
The last time I checked, those solenoids were $230 new from either Toyota or Volvo! Sometimes you can find them used from tranny shops or trans supply houses, but any chance you have to get one, grab it!!!! When they go out, you no longer have OD, so the other option is to make a passage between the two ports and remove the inner O-ring, but then you cannot shift to 3rd from OD manually.
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Post by a2ndopinion Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:59 am

Since shonuff hasn't showed up here yet, I'll send him a text message. That should get his attention!
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Post by a2ndopinion Wed May 08, 2013 2:41 pm

Okay! I recently finished (I think) all of the front end mods.
I wasn't happy with the limited travel of the front end due to the coilover sleeves height and didn't want to cut them. I was tired of trying to cut my own RCAs (roll center adjusters - see previous thread), wanted to be able to induce more camber at a whim and needed caster for more camber on turns.
I finally decided to just bite the bullet and spend the money to buy some of the goodies premade, and had a machinist friend (BlackCatToy) make some changes that we'd already started.

To change the coilover sleeve height, I needed the rings on my strut tubes moved down, so I got BlackCatToy some more strut tubes and he built them the same as the originals (shortened for MR2 SW20 rear AGX struts), but installed the rings for the sleeves 3" further down.
I ordered Summit Racing 10" tall 300 lb coilover springs and 2.5" thrust bearings to ride under the springs to allow easier adjusting and allow the springs to travel easier. I got a hold of Gabe at TechnoToyTuning (T3) and ordered his RA6x RCAs, camber plates and spring hats (that's the money I didn't want to spend - about $300 total).
The end result was worth every penny and all of the labor! The ride feels almost like stock, but the suspension is VERY stiff, even with the struts set at 1 - I haven't tried with the struts turned up any higher yet. Even w/ a manual steering box, the wheel is easy to turn. Almost all bumpsteer has been eliminated. It corners even better than before, but has made the weak back end much more noticeable, so I need to at least get the urethane bushings put in the leafs.


Modified Corona steering arm hole to work with 3rd gen Celica (RA6x) strut tubes
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 ModifiedovalledCoronasteeringarmhole_zpsc879b267


UHMW washers (bushing/bearing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 AA979198-D6BF-494E-AAD0-9BEF882E3F12-1003-000000A2B036E8F9_zps3a8069ae


UHMW bearing wear bottom - it works as designed!
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 UHMWbottom_zps23014a90


UHMW bearing wear top - it works as designed!
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 UHMWtop_zps6894e39a


Spring hat wear from the UHMW - working as designed!
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 Springhatwear_zpsda01e6fa


Spring bearing
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 DSCF1832_zpsc3d76cef


Summit 10" spring
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 043D0CE6-2505-41A8-B64F-0D0337F44E3F-3091-00000342FFE29342_zps6ef1c3bc


T3 camber (& caster) plates and RCAs
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 9063922C-1C33-4DEB-B24F-8EA8E867F41B-1003-000000A29A0017F0_zpsb1d6fcad


Standard height coilover sleeve height for 5-7" tall springs, left
Revised height coilover sleeve height for 10" tall springs, right
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 Standardleftmodifiedright_zpscac8cda9


5" spring height setup left, 10" spring height setup right - ring lowered 3"
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 Shortenedstandardheightleftshortenedrevisedheightright_zps358d3ddf


Adjusted height spring collar - has lots of room to raise or lower!
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 Adjustedheight-notespringbearing_zps52a145d2


Assembled in car
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 Assembledincar_zpsd641dc2d


Camber plate in car - before setting camber
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 79EAF5E8-BC7E-41B9-A142-DE70F8665776-229-00000027668A99F8_zpsbc5441f5


RCA, boxed control arm, 28mm sway bar, all urethane bushings, Cressida big brakes...
'81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 RCAboxedcontrolarm28mmswaybarallurethanebushings_zps46fe8513


I wish my ex-wife were closer so she could go for a ride, as she knows the car very well and needs to feel it now. Her '79 Celica will get almost the same setup. I had a friend with a similar setup in his '83 Celica GT drive it the other day and he loved it, so is going to order 300 lb springs for his too.
My youngest daughter went for a ride last night, and it passes her "breast test" much better than the previous setup. '81 Wagon - aka the "sleigh" - Page 2 WwwMessenToolscom-Sex-001
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Post by snurfsupdude Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:35 am

I have an 80 wagon. I really admire your work. I was wondering about your rear suspension. Which leafs did you remove and was the overload leaf from a 4wd or 2wd hilux? And what year. Just trying to get low and handle better. The guy I got the car from was a bit of a dunce. It's sitting on bump stops up front and the rear has 2 mile long ubolts which makes me think some stupid thick block were in there at some point. The car is sitting on 18" wheels(too big for my taste even though they are kinda sharp). I have agx cartridges and coilovers for the front. Just need to get it all installed. Also wanted to ask which year camaro agx rear shocks I should order to work with the back when I lower it. Already have prothane/ whitline bushings, just need to sort the springs and order the shocks. Thanks in advance for any help, and thank you for the very useful information already provided here.

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